There has been some recent discussion about Scrivener and how it compares to MyInfo. I am someone who bought a macbook primarily to use Scrivener (and to this day, all I use this machine for is writing...nothing else).
MyInfo is not Scrivener. And it should not try to be Scrivener.
Even so, I think MyInfo could dramatically improve it's utility as a writing tool, while remaining an excellent info management tool, by adopting a few key features from Scrivener. The old 80/20 rule: get an 80% improvement by identifying the most important 20%.
My short list of key Scrivener features for writing are as follows. These are specifically geared at the flow of writing and editing, not of information management (sorting, rearranging, filtering, etc).
Typewriter mode. My favorite feature of Scrivener. It holds the line I am typing in the middle of the screen so that I'm not forever typing at the bottom of the screen. It's so great that I feel almost any writing app should support this. Only a few do, and those are all on the Mac AFAIK.
Zoom. Take the current page and zoom in/out. Does not change the formatting of the document, just zooms the page to show the text larger or smaller.
Full screen mode. Eliminate all the distractions and widgets, displaying just the text in the center of the screen. Can easily toggle between normal mode and full-screen writing mode. This is basically WriteRoom or DarkRoom emedded within Scrivener. Scrivener adds some nice extras, such as adjusting page width, zooming, and others. But those aside, the ability to just concentrate on that page is incredibly valuable. As an aside, lots of Mac tools have this feature (eg: MacJournal). Incredibly rare in Windows apps.
Split screen. I know a lot of people keep asking for an edit multiple documents feature in MyInfo. There is a world of difference between "edit multiple" and "split screen." Scrivener uses the latter. You scan split the document window into two parts. You can then (a) see two parts of the same document on one screen or (b) see two different documents. I find that most of the time this is all I really want. I don't want to edit multiple and, worse, waste time managing the screen layout. The split feature lets you split horizontally or vertically. You can also switch documents (so they swap places). And of course you can remove the split.
Temporarily combine multiple documents. This is called "edit scrivenings" in the current version. You select all the pieces you want to edit and choose "edit scrivenings." This stitches them into a single long document for reading/editing (with visual cues about where each piece start/stops). Each piece is still a separate document, but now you can work with all the little pieces as though it is a larger document
Integration of all the above. For example, you can "edit scrivenings" and then bring that up in full-screen mode, zoom in to make it larger, and then toggle typewriter mode.
For me at least, MyInfo would become vastly more enjoyable as a writing environment by adopting these features of MyInfo--especially typewriter mode, zooming, and full-screen mode. After that I would like the split document window feature. Temporarily combining multiple documents is useful, but also last on my list. No matter what was included, integration as described would be necessary.
Scrivener has a ton of other features. But the ones I've outline above strike me, at least, as the most useful writing related features that are missing from MyInfo.
I'm sure there are technical issues to deal with. Some of them may be significant. Still, would love to see this in MyInfo.
Last edited by karlfast on Wed Sep 22, 2010 4:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I agree with everything suggested in the quoted post, except one thing, and that has to do with split window versus multiple windows.
I like the ability to move multiple windows around - to size them as I want, and place them where I want, in relation to each other. It is part of my creative thinking/writing process.
I find split windows harder to work with - more static, less conducive.
On the other hand, realizing how individual each of our creative processes are, I can see how split windows may be better for some people.
Petko, you have already said we will get multiple windows. I hope that happens in the next upgrade as you have said. Perhaps after that, the split window option could also be offered.
It would be very helpful to be able to save a configuration of open windows as a specific "view," so that the next time I worked on a project I could open them all with a single mouse click, and they would be sized and placed exactly as they were the last time I used them.
I find especially useful the suggestion of "typewriter mode" so that we don't always end up typing at the bottom of the screen and/or have to enter lines so we can come back up to typing at midpoint on the screen. I used to use WrtieNow on the Mac, and it had this feature - very cool.
I agree especially that MyInfo should not try to be Scrivener. I think the changes suggested can be incorporated without fundamentally changing the nature of MI as an information management tool.
Thanks.
Daly
karlfast wrote:There has been some recent discussion about Scrivener and how it compares to MyInfo. I am someone who bought a macbook primarily to use Scrivener (and to this day, all I use this machine for is writing...nothing else).
MyInfo is not Scrivener. And it should not try to be Scrivener.
Even so, I think MyInfo could dramatically improve it's utility as a writing tool, while remaining an excellent info management tool, by adopting a few key features from Scrivener. The old 80/20 rule: get an 80% improvement by identifying the most important 20%.
My short list of key Scrivener features for writing are as follows. These are specifically geared at the flow of writing and editing, not of information management (sorting, rearranging, filtering, etc).
Typewriter mode. My favorite feature of Scrivener. It holds the line I am typing in the middle of the screen so that I'm not forever typing at the bottom of the screen.
Zoom. Take the current page and zoom in/out. Does not change the formatting of the document, just zooms the page to show the text larger or smaller.
Full screen mode. Eliminate all the distractions and widgets, displaying just the text in the center of the screen. Can easily toggle between normal mode and full-screen writing mode. This is basically WriteRoom or DarkRoom emedded within Scrivener. Scrivener adds some nice extras, such as adjusting page width, zooming, and others. But those aside, the ability to just concentrate on that page is incredibly valuable. As an aside, lots of Mac tools have this feature (eg: MacJournal). Incredibly rare in Windows apps.
Split screen. I know a lot of people keep asking for an edit multiple documents feature in MyInfo. There is a world of difference between "edit multiple" and "split screen." Scrivener uses the latter. You scan split the document window into two parts. You can then (a) see two parts of the same document on one screen or (b) see two different documents. I find that most of the time this is all I really want. I don't want to edit multiple and, worse, waste time managing the screen layout. The split feature lets you split horizontally or vertically. You can also switch documents (so they swap places). And of course you can remove the split.
Temporarily combine multiple documents. This is called "edit scrivenings" in the current version. You select all the pieces you want to edit and choose "edit scrivenings." This stitches them into a single long document for reading/editing (with visual cues about where each piece start/stops). Each piece is still a separate document, but now you can work with all the little pieces as though it is a larger document
Integration of all the above. For example, you can "edit scrivenings" and then bring that up in full-screen mode, zoom in to make it larger, and then toggle typewriter mode.
For me at least, MyInfo would become vastly more enjoyable as a writing environment by adopting these features of MyInfo--especially typewriter mode, zooming, and full-screen mode. After that I would like the split document window feature. Temporarily combining multiple documents is useful, but also last on my list. No matter what was included, integration as described would be necessary.
Scrivener has a ton of other features. But the ones I've outline above strike me, at least, as the most useful writing related features that are missing from MyInfo.
I'm sure there are technical issues to deal with. Some of them may be significant. Still, would love to see this in MyInfo.
For me, split windows is further down the list, though certainly desireable.
I appreciate the scrivener approach because (a) it works well enough, most of the time and (b) I don't waste time fiddling with windows sizes and placements.
Striking that balance between flexibility and rapidly creating the view you want is key for this.
The balance for some will be with multiple windows open, and for others, it will be with split screen.
Either way, it would be good to safe specific arrangements as "views" which could be re-established with a mouse click when coming back to a project.
If MI offered both multiple windows and split screens, and the option to save specific views, it would be unique in the market place in terms of flexibility and choice for users.
Daly
karlfast wrote:For me, split windows is further down the list, though certainly desireable.
I appreciate the scrivener approach because (a) it works well enough, most of the time and (b) I don't waste time fiddling with windows sizes and placements.
Striking that balance between flexibility and rapidly creating the view you want is key for this.
I would also cast a supporting vote for a zoom feature. When I am sitting in libraries, I use MyInfo on a netbook (Vaio P) with a small screen and high resolution: the result is that my usual default font (14 pt. Georgia), which looks fine on my desktop machine, is now too small to read comfortably. Hence when I am editing or creating a document, I temporarily enlarge it to 20 pt. -- and then afterwards have to remember to reduce it to 14 pt. again. Automating this process would be tremendously helpful.
As for full-screen editing, I find I can get part of the way there by concealing the tree through clicking the icon in the lower-right corner of the screen.
1. I will keep using MyInfo since it is a different animal and the feature roadmap looks great.
2. I hope MyInfo adopts the Scrivener features listed above. In truth, they're not even Scrivener features. Many apps have some of them (eg, Word has zooming, but not typewriter mode). Scrivener, however, has all of them and integrates them beautifully. My list of suggestions is really a list of features, increasingly, are a must-have for any program that supports writing and editing text.
3. I will buy Scrivener for Windows and integrate it into my workflow, which includes MyInfo, Word, Mendeley, SimpleNote, and DevonThink, among others.
I see your workflow contains Windows AND Mac programs all the same. Well, I would not call this a workflow. You say, MI should not try to be Scrivener, and then you give a list of almost all the core outstanding features Scrivener has - are you aware that you are asking Petko precisely to imitate Scrivener, and what this would be an amount of additional work for him? AND Scrivener will be sold 30 dollars, whereas MI Prof. is 90 dollars if I remember well - where would be Petko's interest of doing such a such, charging 3 times the price AND NOT being as good as Scrivener at the same time. Excuse me for putting it as bluntly as that, but Petko would be rather badly advised to imitate Scrivener at this level... and besides, the "Whole Screen Just for Writing" is there already in MI, just "Maximize Editor", you can even do it with your mouse.
Excuse me again, but your "workflow" incorporates half a dozen programs or more, and adding Scrivener features to MI would not sell so many additional MI licences, but THAT's what we need if we want to rely upon MI in 5 years from now - what I am trying to do here is working out a way in which Petko, with a MINIMUM of additional work, will soon have ONE program that is a complete workflow in itself, and BY THAT will become a "unique selling proposal", thus selling a lot of additional licences, by appealing to people who do NOT want 6 or 8 different programs (and on 2 or 3 different platforms combined, that is), but who want ONE program... MI, where they can do real and reliable and smooth work. That's the only way MI / Petko can make real money, not in doing one year of additional programming in order to please people who, in any case, just use MI as a sixth or eight part of their "work flow".
I know this appears harsh but it's exactly the truth. No offence intended.
Fred, thanks for some interesting thoughts. I suspect that the most important factor in the survival of MyInfo will be Petko's ability to make the program usable in some way on mobile devices. I confess I can't quite enter into the minds of people who want to organize a large project (or write a novel) on a cell phone; it sounds like a misuse of technology to me. On the other hand, I own both an iPhone and iPad and understand their seductiveness, and it's perfectly obvious that all the energy and enthusiasm of the computer world are focused right now on mobile gadgets and mobile software. Look at the stupefying commercial success of Evernote, which isn't particularly good at organizing information (or at least it's not very clever at organizing structured data such as research notes) and has a lot of glaring flaws but is nevertheless brilliant at synchronizing data across devices.
Petko has made it clear that he does not intend to develop MyInfo in any OS besides Windows. I think that leaves three other possibilities open: (1) He may, as he has hinted, create a synced Web version. (2) He may be able to connect it with some existing mobile app. (3) An independent developer may, with Petko's blessing, create a mobile app on his own. (Syncing, at least on the iPhone and iPad, could easily be done with Dropbox.)
Connecting MyInfo with the mobile world, no matter how it's done, would probably have an amazing effect on its sales.
I hadn't been aware that Petko had made this clear, but if that is so, I'm quite happy with it since it is my conviction that he has better things to do than waste his time on multiple platforms. But read on. One week ago, I've been in a store in order to try a MacPad or whatever it's called. Well, I immediately grasped the fascination of it. So I understand you perfectly, you would like to do all you have to do when not in your office, on your beloved Pad... I also would like to do that, but precisely, that is not possible! Since the Pad cannot do it, it does not have the power to do it! (The developer of Scrivener being one of the most intelligent guys out there in the Mac world, and HE refuses to work for the Pad: why? because he's suddenly dumb? nope.)
Let's remind ourselves, Apple does NOT produce their hardware themselves. And this says, such a fine display, with that fine functionality, will get into mainstream rather soon. Then Microsoft will have ready some intermediate operating system, something like a stripped-down XP / 7 but with touch functionality, and as I said, I'll be happy to give my 2 cents to any MI touch operation; I myself would like to have a Windows Pad with MI, and I would use it heavily!
I think it's a little bit "insane" to buy some Apple device, knowing you are working in the Windows world; it's a jouet, it's a toy, it's your pleasure - but don't ask it for being really useful, it isn't... and it weren't even when you'd be in the Apple world / prison: even Mac users don't take too much real profit out of their Pads, the Pad being a toy and a money machine for Apple / Jobs. Take your Pad as a holiday: A REAL please, but that's it. (There's a french saying, Don't ask somebody but for he's able to deliver.)
For the time being, why don't you buy a Netbook and install MI on it? A 10" netbook, some 1,300 kg, and with a real keyboard?
The problem is not, how to get MI into a Pad or a Phone, the problem is, how to use a (better) Netbook = A-Real-Useful-Machine out and about, without weight overload. I, personally, am waiting for a better Netbook, but with 10 h autonomy, like that Acer machine but which had only 3 h autonomy, so my problem for the time being is, real netbooks are too slow, whereas better machines / processors suck the battery dry too fast. But this is a problem all devices have for now, and that will be lowered in 1-2 years from now.
One thing is important: The device must be tiny, leightweight, and thus, will have a tiny screen. And this implies that MI, indeed, will also need some alternative GUI, for those tiny screens, e.g. a toggle which hides ALL panes except text pane, and which restores all those panes at once, and even a toggle that ONLY shows the panes, THEN only shows the text, and so on. That's easy to implement. Fingers on a screen, that's pleasure, that's fun. But all we really NEED is a real working environment out and about that works as smoothly as our office working environment, or quite.
As said before, it's the BEAUTY of those Apple things that make sell them, not their usefulness. And all that can be done on a Windows GUI. In two years from now, much better netbooks will be seen everywhere, no need for apples, and MI will be perfect on them (just buy a 1500 dollars sub-notebook today, and you see what I mean: there are beautiful, AND functional things, and MI runs well on them).
Fred, you and I are not in fundamental disagreement about appropriate technology. Last spring I bought the smallest laptop/netbook that seemed actually usable: the Sony Vaio P. I carry it to libraries every week and used it all last summer in Europe (though part of the time there I also had a bluetooth keyboard and an external monitor on my desk). For that matter, I have been using a whole series of laptops for the same purposes since the mid-1980s.
I have done extensive tests on the iPad as a note-taking device, and my conclusion was that although it works reasonably well, it's not nearly as good as my Vaio. On the other hand, the iPad is not merely a frivolous toy, as you seem to believe. It performs all sorts of useful functions in my life. I now read the New York Times on the iPad at the breakfast table; I do nearly all of my RSS and e-mail reading on it; I read books on it; and occasionally I set it up next to my computer so that I can take notes from a PDF file without sacrificing a lot of screen real estate. (And yes, I do have fun with it, especially when I'm watching Netflix films.)
In other words, I wasn't primarily describing my own needs when I talked about the importance of connecting MyInfo with mobile devices. But the world is rushing headlong in the direction of always-connected, whether you and I approve of it or not, and I don't see how any note-taking software (even something as excellent as MyInfo) can survive in the long run without taking the mobile world into account.
That's really funny since indeed, I had been thinking of mentioning the Sony since I had been contemplating buying it! The only reason I did not buy it, was precisely its weak autonomy but at 700 g, WITH a real keyboard, I had been really tempted! So I considered briefly mentioning that device but then I thought it was contained in my 1300 g netbook sample - but indeed, and that's why I'm 100 p.c. with you, the fact that the Sony is not 1300 g but half that (680 g it seems, or was it 730 g, depending on the model?), would have let me have accepted its low processing power IF it had some more autonomy.
So, I should have written with more precision: That Acer thing is sufficient in power, at some 1600 or 1700 g if I remember well, but insufficient in autonomy; netbooks STINK, power-wise (since they weight too much for that little power), but offer tremendous autonomy (= just like the Apple Pad)... and the Sony is so tiny, so light, such a little joy, that there, and there only, I would have accepted the lack of power... if indeed its autonomy was acceptable - same weight as the Apple Pad, same range of processing power... same autonomy, please! (Less of a screen but the keyboard outweights this.)
So, I do heavy crimping, but indeed, if I had more money than I have, I would have bought the Sony, as you did. - But in 1 or 2 years, the combination of those 3 devices will hopefully appear on the market.
And you are right, today I'm not always online yet, I do with several mobile phones for my two countries (B and D, I said that), and theoretically I could branch them to my notebooks, but as yet, I've not yet done it.
I understand that as a reading device, the Apple Pad is handy, slick and beautiful. But as with any mobile device, you need to have a contract with your mobile phone provider in order to get your mails into it (and in order to send them of course) - or you pay by minute, by 10 KB, by day, by 1 MB, or whatever (except for the Apple Pad I think where a contract is mandatory).
But I have one big question, then: Since you own that Sony I had been shortly dreaming of, why don't you get and send your mails by the Sony? (= lesser screen, better keyboard) - some of those devices have an inbuilt airwave modem just like the Apple Pad, for others you could use a (currently really tiny) stick.
Is it that the Pad is "on" 10 hours in a row, receiving your mails in "real time", whereas the Sony would have to be put on first, then you must contact your provider in order to see if there is something in your inbox, and then you put it down again, hoping this way it might be (badly) working up to the evening without the "battery empty" message?
If this is so, I understand perfectly well, but then, that's not a tremendous feature of the Pad, but simply the lack of usability of those competing devices which in fact have all those possibilities, but just are short in applying them.
Thus, not having the extra money to spend on such an intermediate device, I'm waiting for better times, but I see the interest in them for people who can spare the extra money. I understand that it's a pain in the a** to carry around something two times the "necessary" weight, or to have to put it on and out and on and out, just to have something of the "right" weight.
But so many people are waiting, like I do, or are carrying around netbooks with sticks (or with incorporated always-on (?) modems), and thus, you would be autonomous 12 hours a day, could leave your netbook "on", have MI on it, permanently ready for entering, on a real keyboard, their thoughts in "real time"... and even their mails, in "real time".
So what, all the fuss being about 600 g too much for carrying around a netbook? Am I not aware of something important there?
BUYERS BEWARE
I WOULD have bought a netbook indeed, notwithstanding it's "heavy" weight, in order to carry around MI with me, everywhere, the Lenovo 3 there (the others being too ugly), but precisely, that Lenovo 3 is NOT YET featuring that bios toggle for the Fn and the Control keys (whereas newer / more expensive Lenovo notebooks all (?) have that toggle now), and no way to toggle them in the Windows registry. I even got Alt-Tab (=for toggling between MI and my browser, etc.) on that utmost sh**, the ShiftFix (or how do you call it) key, by hampering with the registry, but that sh** Fn key in (older, even very expensive) Lenovo notebooks, you won't get rid of it!
(The problem, of course, is not that they do the Fn where Ctrl belongs, and vice versa, if everybody else did the same; the problem is, you switch between a lot of keyboards, and then, you'll NEVER get accustomed to that switch of the two keys on your Lenovo notebook vs. all your other keyboards. And do not tell me you'll GET accustomed to it, I HAD a Lenovo notebook, and it drove me crazy for this reason.)
Thus, perhaps, in order to have my MI working environment always with me, I'll buy the Lenovo 4 netbook, instead of waiting for 2 other years for much better things.
But again, except for its usefulness as a reading device, it might be that the automatic "always online" character of such a Pad might be its real appeal... which you can have with a contract / "flat rate" or something for your in-built netbook. But then, the keyboard is an advantage and a disadvantage at the same time: As soon as you type, a Lenovo keyboard is great to have; as soon as you don't type anymore, the device being "on" just for receiving messages, an open netbook gets very unhandy, whereas a Tab, well, you even can range it in a pile with "other" papers!
But be it a Windows Tab, then, where I am free to use my usual things...!
(And then, almost all students today come with their netbooks (or expensive sub-notebooks) - mostly Windows-driven, a few Macs indeed... but Tabs? Not too much practical for real work... and we are straight at our beginning.
So, I see those interests in it, but again, those interests are of rather limited value in time, it's advantages of interim solutions. You are early adopters - they are doomed to endure their special frustration: They lay out the money, and still, they do not get enough for it since developers don't follow. (Whereas the majority, I and many others that simply wait, have our own kind of frustration... to which early adopting is a try to escape from, right? You choose your frustrations, you cannot avoid them altogether.)
But we all have our lifetime, often so limited without our knowing: We all have to prioritize our efforts. And giving a year's coding efforts or more to an intermediate plateform is possible for a big company, not for a one man show... and then, all those developers who'd try to jump unto the band waggon now, would be ready only when it'll be too late for them to harvest!
